Posted by Zeitgeist in General | 11 Comments »
i support the troops being there and doing their job, but this whole thing is going to be a dark chapter in our nation’s history. it’s really sad.
i was sitting this morning, at my boyfriend’s apartment, and he came and turned on the tv, when i opened my eyes the first thing i saw was shells exploding over bagdhad. it just made my entire body hurt. this whole thing makes me sick, but i send all of my love to the people who are in the middle of all of it. *Sigh*
For the record we could talk about this endlesslly, but the bottom line is that the man has been in violation of multiple UN resolutions for 12 years and is now developing WMD (see Hans Blix report, I read all 173 pages, did you?). I wish that things like this didn’t have to come to be, but the world doesn’t work the way we want it to. Some facts for you:
Unilateralism apparently = 45 countries, that’s how many are behind us on this. We had 47 in WWII.
France who objects to our unilateral cowboy actions has entered conflicts 37 times since 1967 without UN approval.
Regime change in Iraq became the goal of U.S. foreign policy under Bill Clinton, the president who has called upon our armed forces more than any president in U.S. HISTORY.
Iraq will be better off in charge of their own destiny. Its not about oil, it’s about the rule of law being thrown aside, its about the dangers of a leader motivated by vanity who is free to do as he chooses with increasingly sophisticated and far ranging weaponry.
France is currently conducting investigations in their govt involving two things: one is a large oil scandal the could rock the foundations of french governance, two is the fact that French tax money went to help Saddam develop Bio weapons… oops…
The peace protests in the U.S. are being bankrolled by A.N.S.W.E.R., an offshoot of the World Workers Party (aka the Communist Chinese). They broke from the Red Chinese in the late 60s because the Chinese weren’t as willing to kill for their cause.
One person has died, the buildings bombed were all empty and as a matter of policy the U.S. works this way, unlike say the Somalis who used women and children as human shields.
Its not likely to last long. And when it is over, the Iraqi people will be able to take control of their destinies. Here’s hoping.
Whatever, pax et virtute!
yeah, that thing that damon said…
you know what kills me? the simplistic notion from some that its all for oil, as if we are rolling in to lower the price per barrel. personally, i think this operation is one in a string of operations designed to bring about a stable middle east, to eradicate the contagion that is radical islam, to introduce liberty to these peoples, etc. iran is certainly ready for democracy; the citizens there have just about had it with the mullahs. i wouldnt be surprised to see them fall soonafter the US has control of iraq and started to set up conditions for a representative government there.
with all due respect del, this also may be one of the first chapters in the taming of the middle east, and a defining moment for the good in the history of our country.
now n. korea on the other hand…that kim is a fucking loon!
one last thing. anti-war does not mean you are FOR peace, and i wonder how many of these people, if transported 65 years back, would have advocated leaving hitler alone.
that said, i adore all three of you.
i appreciate you all saying your piece. no matter what your opinion it will not affect my view that you are wonderful souls and i am proud to know you. i hope you think so kindly on me.
whoa, some long posts!
unfortunately, you’re both wrong and i’m right. the sooner you realize that, the better we are. 😉 just kidding.
the coalition of the killing that you say is behind us damon is a lie. how many countries besides britain is actually donating money and soldiers? not that many. yes, it MAY be 45 countries behind us, but that’s only to get financial aid later.
why does the united states have to meddle in the affairs of other countries? there are plenty of lunatic leaders out there and what are we doing about them? like rob points out, we do have a more serious problem with north korea.
i do think that this illegal war is about oil to a certain extent. the US wants the oil to level the playing field in world politics. oil does make the world go round and whoever controls it has an advantage. by gaining control of oil production the stranglehold that OPEC has on oil distribution throughout the world will weaken. furthermore, this war is the first step in a very bold foreign policy move that has been in the works since bush the first was in power. check out: http://www.newamericancentury.org/
A.N.S.W.E.R. has their own motives, but for the most part the people that have been protesting worldwide have no affiliation to that group.
the french have conflicts of interest, but let’s not forget that without the french there would be no united states of america. the french gave us the statue of liberty remember? we do know what liberty is right?
“…its about the dangers of a leader motivated by vanity who is free to do as he chooses with increasingly sophisticated and far ranging weaponry.”
i’m sorry, we’re you talking about bush or saddam?iraq has been severely restrained economically the past 12 years or so due to the trade sanctions put on by the united nations. they are not “increasingly sophisticated” and they do not have “far ranging weaponry” they only have a handful of scuds left.
as far as wmd is concerned, iraq does not have nukes and the bio weapons they have were provided by US companies. yes, that’s true. here’s a nice article showing rumsfeld shaking saddam’s hand in the 80’s:
things that make you say hhmmmmmm…
we could only hope that after this war a more stable middle east will exist, but i doubt very highly that will happen. the united states will not be able to rebuild iraq like they did with japan and europe. remember afghanistan? congress forgot to include financial aid in this year’s budget and gave $300 mil after the fact. whoops!afghanistan is run by tribal warlords in the various regions of the country and karzi only has “power” in the capital and has had numerous assassination attempts on his life. oh yeah, we all know that karzai was a former UNOCAL employee right? for those that do not know, UNOCAL wants to put in an OIL pipeline through afghanistan. hhmmmmm…. also, the US has turned a blind eye and allowed the production/cultivation/harvest of poppies and has led to a bumper crop year of some cheap smack. just ask anyone in amsterdam. in addition, the cost of rebuilding afghanistan will be in the neighborhood of 10 billion and require 65,000-80,000 troops. show me the money.
now let’s look at the possible outcome of what will happen in a newly liberated iraq. we have the kurds to the north who already have some form of autonomy and would not want to be a part of a democratic iraq. also, turkey is nervous that if by chance kurdistan becomes its own country, the kurds in their country will want to break away.
this war has a potential to breed a whole new generation of terrorists that will hate the united states with extreme fervor.
ok, rob says,
“this also may be one of the first chapters in the taming of the middle east, and a defining moment for the good in the history of our country.”
um, i hope so, but i doubt it. this is what we have folks, the united states is attacking a sovreign country that poses no threat to it. period.
your final comment rob leads me to believe that you’re refering to “appeasement.” this is a word that a lot of people like to throw around these days with reference to nazi germany. i’m not sure that’s right.
well, i’m at work so i think i should be kinda working you know? you guys are all my homies so no one is offending me.
right now, it’s out of our hands and we can only hope that this doesn’t last long and that the united states does truly rebuild iraq AND afghanistan. we also need to hope that the united states will be able to rebuild the goodwill that it has squandered in the last two years, which took years to create.
peace in the middle east.
wow, i’ve been missing quite the runaround on this site apparently…i ain’t getting involved, everyone seems to be spouting awesome partial-truths, but i just wanted to express my love for y’all whenever possible…
now how about a cyber group hug everybody?
*feeling the love*
No lie, 45 countries and not just britain with money and soldiers. More are going to be involved in reconstruction afterward. 47 in WWII and how many of them gave troops/$$$? Makes ya think doesn’t it? We have to take care of the lunatics who are a direct threat to our security. North Korea is being watched, don’t you worry your wooly head about that. The difference is attacking N Korea at this point WOULD result in nuclear detonations — this is a BAD thing.
This war is not illegal, it is just not in accord with the UN, which is fine. They can’t back up their own resolutions after 12 years of handsitting. Fine, the U.S. takes care of it like we always have. We act as their standing army, doing what they don’y have the guts to do and some of the council hates us and the rest pretend to thought we do their unspoken (publicly) wish.
There is no doubt that oil is important, but its not the sole reason nor even a larger reason that we are there. Establishing Democracy in the Middle East is good for America and helps stave off further attacks. Stabilizing the Middle East is good for the whole world, not just America. Not only as it pertains to stablizing economic conditions around the world but as it pertains to the jeopardy they constantly place upon the well being of people all over the world should they detonate nuclear weapons or other WMD. There is no grand subtle conspiracy linked through the two President’s Bush, there is only continuous U.S. foreign policy.
ANSWER has everything to do with an ALARMING percentage of the groups protesting. I realize that within each of these groups there are people who are honestly there because they believe in peace and that war is never the answer. Unfortunately they’ve been co-opted and hijacked by other interests. Where you find the big protests, especially on college campuses you find ANSWER and you find the Communist Party of the U.S.
Don’t start on the statue of liberty… this street goes two ways. The French have done their fair share of harm and good to the U.S. and neither of us would have made it through certain times without the other. Remember that Nazi flag flying over Paris? A little more important than a big hunk of metal.
Their WMD program, funded in part by France and Germany is heading towards long range warhead including nuclear. Part of the point here is stopping them before they reah this point because Israel and the U.S. as well as the E.U. would be immediately targeted. Saddam is motivated by vanity, check out state tv in Iraq, hjave you watched it? I have, there’s a channel with nothing but patriotic songs and images of Saddam riding white horses. If you think Bush is as bad as someone who rapes the children of political dissidents in front of them until they capitulate, then you need to go out into the world a bit.
At the time that the U.S. was giving aid to Iraw, it was to combat a larger threat. Saddam was a tool used to effect change in Iran. This is how governments work. The weapons that he has now were developed more recently and with help other than ours in violation of how many UN resolutions? Read the inspections reports.
The OIL pipeline THROUGH AFGHANISTAN is IMPRACTICAL and also the OIL being pumped through exisitng PIPELINES THROUGH AFGHANISTAN is FOR RUSSIA and EUROPE. See I can type in caps too =)
The kurds have had their autonomy basically for how long anyway? Turkey is worried that people will come flooding across their borders, thats why they have troops just across the border in the north already. Not doing this GUARANTEES a new generation of terrorists and guarantees them a safe haven in an Iraq still ruled by a maniac butcher. I’ll take the chance over the certainty. If you think Iraq poses us no threat you need to wake up. No one has all the info except the government on what’s really going on. Not everything is disclosed, even to the U.N. At some point this country has to act in its own best interests. Ask Germany why there isn’t more open hostility in the world, they will tell you its because people know the U.N. will send its good little attack dog the U.S. in to fix things.
As far as appeasement, it is the right word to throw around because its whats happening. No one is willing to defend their ideals and their security because it might hurt someones feelings. Wahhhh! As far as the goodwill we’ve squandered maybe I’m cynical, but our importance as a trade partner and the person everyone comes calling on when they need military or financial help guarantees that on a political level that good will is back real soon. As far as a personal level, some people will come to their senses and some won’t.
ps– no offense taken and none meant =)
ps — can we agree that the elder bush fucked up when he didnt take out saddam last time? and can we agree that the average iraqi doesnt like Bush SR but loves Bush JR? Check out http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,919642,00.html for example… also more of that fun loving saddam handing out checks the families of murderers… oh I’m sorry “palestinian freedom fighters” who bravely ummm exploded… asshats — http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030321/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_palestinian_gaza&e=1 some light on the Rachel Corrie sitch — http://www.btnhboard.com/~scrub/corrie.htm forgot to mention the reason UN support for the war wasn’t given — Chirac grandstanding to take all eyes off France’s problems including 10% unemployment… oops…
ps on the amount/type of weapons that saddam posessed that came from us — http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=topten.htm
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